Curse

Antheus · Dec 04, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

By making it so lengthy, ANet are alienating a large proportion of their audience. Sure, they can go around calling themselves "Elite", but when it comes down to it, they are no more skilled than the person who can only spend 2 hours a day playing.
Going for shorter challenges that are more cerebral and require less brute force and stamina would be FAR more accomodating.

Right now, DoA requires anything but brute force. Anyone attempting to brute force anything there gets wiped in under a minute.

There currently exist hints towards builds, like the frost or trapping builds. But that's it. Everything else is patiently applied skill.

Maybe some "cookie cutter" build will apear. B/p is an example of brute force, with only minimal skill required by the puller. But there, if if agro goes crazy, you have a very high, maybe almost guaranteed chance of survival.

If you can spend 2 hours a day playing, then you can almost certainly spend 2 hours a day not playing for 4 hours on weekend. That's the beauty of GW: you are not forced to spend hours after hours grinding some gear which then allows you to pass. Play 4 hours a month, but be skilled, and you'll have no problem.

But it comes down to skill. It also comes down to this: Mobs level 28? So what? Since when did level ever matter in GW? They can be level 50 for all it matters. Mob skills are what everyone is going against, not their level.

Long? Yes, it takes around 4 hours per area right now.It will come down to two. Every group right now has at least one first-timer, at least one with unsuitable skills, equipment and attribute points, everyone almost always makes a mistake. It's new, it's unknown. But even so, people are passing the missions. Groups not only do not get wiped at start, but the question is becoming of adapting strategies for faster and more reliable killing. Finishing is no longer a problem.

And yes, players who are skilled are currently playing DoA and completing quests. How much they play has nothing to do with it. Although, most of the players I do encounter there are long term veteran players, with incredible ammounts of experience (not xp bar), skill and knowledge.

natano · Dec 04, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

yes its safer to have 2 wars incase of a err7 ^^

we used
2 R/me
1 W/E
1 E/me
3 M/me
not going into detail of skills atm but the monks we had were pretty dam decent and the tank could aggro really well.
1 ranger used cg and targeted the mob casters.
There was a time that our war died and 1 monk tried to rebirth him and the mesmers kept interupting rebirth at 99.9% lol
was funny but eventually we got him out. Our 2nd ranger really help alot with tanking aswell.
Its easy for 3 monks to keep them alive since the others are all out of harms way.

Yes we used MOF not my build either but it works. we just modded around that build somewhat. Try the W/E it really cuts down on the time it takes to kill a mob and the boss died really fast aswell since his mob was attacking our war and sliver armour was hitting the boss ^^

Forgot to add we had
1 N/me Bipper

unspokenglory · Dec 04, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

oh i would soo try it but that would mean me taking my broke chars arse otu and getting silver armour lol and for a ranger to have cg here in doa is almost a must have ^_^ great things come of it lol

we ran
2: monks

2 rangers

2 eles

2 necros

2 warriors

In a varity of ways .. base 2 monks 1 necro 2 rangers 1 ele 2 tanks .. if it didnt work well we would switch it up etc..

natano · Dec 04, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

I like the 2 necros
what builds u using for them?

Hope something good comes out of this thread.
PPl start posting suggestions for builds instead of complaining ^^.

unspokenglory · Dec 04, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

well i know one was bip ... for energy of course :P the other was running a sv build

natano · Dec 04, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

yes i noticed that the mobs dont tend to remove hexes as quickly as they should which makes hexes really effective.
i will try adding in an actual mes in the build will post results of that.
Im off home been a long day at work

but off to GW yay!!!!
unspokenglory pm me if u want to try some new builds my ign is
I atsushi I or Ming Su ling

Gl with ur build and hope to see u all in the final elite mission soon ^^.

Spazzer · Dec 04, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amity and Truth

Yes Nexus, please, troll some more. We'd really like to see more insults coming from you.

What he is saying is true, though. The only "skill" involved in DoA is how much free time available to you. For students, that might not be a problem. For us professionals, it's a waste of effort. =)

It's simple copy-paste difficulty and "number up". There's nothing new or rewarding in DoA.

Quote:

Now, you can do a Forgemaster run with a 3-man team in under 1.5 hours.

This is a silly thing to say, because a 1-shot quest will not be repeated when people "get it right". It might be true of the elite mission, when people finally get that far.

unspokenglory · Dec 04, 2006, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Oh Please DEfine PRofesionals ! becuase i know i wake up at about 4 am take my wife to work go back to bed wake up pick her up go to work intill about 11 pm then i come home hit the computer for about 2-4 hours depending on schedual next day which is usually the same ? i seem to find the time to get it done .. plus on same days are busier then other's.. so please inlighten us all on the term u used

Mythic Eternity · Dec 04, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

It is annoying that we have no choices. People are being very selective when they face a really hard mission. However, they put a reward that everyone is needing within it......My Mo, W, E, and N can get it, how about my A, my D @@? Do i need ages to get a thing that i should have in general? (For example that Rt hero)

We have to group for PUG, we cant do it with heros, and henchmen, that's fine. But can we have more choices? I do think my A will be excluded from this area forever lol

This time Anets has taught me a lesson, always finish Mo, W, E first before you try other classes

Spazzer · Dec 04, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by unspokenglory

Oh Please DEfine PRofesionals ! becuase i know i wake up at about 4 am take my wife to work go back to bed wake up pick her up go to work intill about 11 pm then i come home hit the computer for about 2-4 hours depending on schedual next day which is usually the same ? i seem to find the time to get it done .. plus on same days are busier then other's.. so please inlighten us all on the term u used

2 hours? You don't have enough time to DoA. I'd kick you out of my group.

Sorry to hear about how you have to pick your sister up every day. Maybe you need to fix her car.

Spura · Dec 04, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

My complaint is not with the difficulty as such but with class/build elitism that comes with it.

I have 2 main PvE characters, paragon and assassin
Takes me about an hour to get a groups with paragon and I don't even wanna try with the assassin.

One fricken hour just to get into a group! Then several attempts, waiting for new people cos someone leaves after each attempt etc... I don't have this kind of time.

If you are paragon, assassin, ritualist or dervish you are screwed. Tankers are only warriors accepted. Then bip or ss necroes, mesmers, monks are the healers(obviously nobody but me sees the potential restoration has), eles are nukers(sf of course) and rangers can be trappers and GC/winter.

This is the thing that pisses me off the most. In SF you couldn't get a group if you weren't part of the oro farm build, Tombs you have to be b/p, UW etc you had to be SS or 55 tank or trapper, and now this area which is way harder than any of those and also likely way more discriminatory.

Always same crap, if you are monk you can get in any group if you are something like assassin you can't get in no group. (I am talking about non-guild on consistent basis of course).

Also areas with hard hitting mobs don't promote elite play, only elitism, because such hard hitters promote abilities that scale with number/power of mobs. Such abilities: Protective spirit. The stronger the mobs, the more powerful and important it becomes. Evade stance: More monsters that hit harder means more damage is avoided by evading. An exaple of ability that doesn't scale: Ballad of Restoration. It ends up as flat 80+ HP heal regardless if you are facing a lvl 1 monster or 10 monsters that hit for 300 each.

And classes that have abilities that don't scale get really shafted and rejected out of parties. Premium example is assassin whose abilities almost always don't scale with power of the target, they are usually single target and the character itself is melee range and low armor.

So nobody wants an assassin. Same is happening to some other classes, though the assassin in the worst.

That is why this pve thing is crap, you can only play with specific classes if you wanna see end game content. Sure you can play end game content with any character/build but for that you usually need a guild that is very dedicated. And heck it is hard to get 8 people together at the same time, cooperating, for gvg, that becomes even harder for pve.

Bankai · Dec 04, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Actually, Assassins should not have a big problem getting in because of Shadow form tanks.

stamenflicker · Dec 04, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Fertile Season: non-spirit creatures get health and armor.

Aren't margonites considered spirit creatures? They can walk on the sulfur. Could be a good skill to pack. Anyone tried it?

ETA: they leave corpses though don't they? That makes them non-spirit creatures?

Avarre · Dec 04, 2006, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Spirits are immune to hexes and conditions. They also have a lower armor rating. It is very clear what is a spirit and what is not

Yes, logically, your point would make sense but games don't work on what 'should' be by lore, they work on what is flagged as what in the programming.

To people that replied to my previous comment - in the case of the city, it should take you about 2.5 hours if you're going at a moderate pace. The other areas take longer, this is because very few people have experience in them. A month down the road, I expect all the areas will be around 2-3 hour completion times.

Thalion Galad · Dec 04, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

hi all

Make it for 12 players that will be more fun for more players at the same time...

MirkoTeran · Dec 04, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalion Galad

Make it for 12 players that will be more fun for more players at the same time...

You forgot to include sarcasm tags.

MithranArkanere · Dec 04, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

I just want to know one thing:
Have anyone done one of those missions in under one hour?
If you answer is no, you are saying DoA is boken and must be fixed.

In one week? In one month? after next chapter release? When is not the matter, the matter is that it should be done.
The average GW player can play around 30minutes and 2 hours per day.
And they are the ones paying hte servers, not the so-called elite players.

If you spend more time with tactics and researching builds, th server won't be cheaper, they are still to be paid. And the average player is the one that pays them. The so-called elite players may say whatever they want, but they need the average players, without them there is no game. THey rule the game, they make this game go on. Not the ones that play more, no. The ones that buy more. Welcome to capitalism. Bow to the crowd and resign yourself.

Period.

Ninna · Dec 04, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I just want to know one thing:
Have anyone done one of those missions in under one hour?
If you answer is no, you are saying DoA is boken and must be fixed.
Period.

How is this different than ANY elite area in Prophecies/Factions during its first month of release?

You would think DOA is the 1st elite area that *ever existed* -- its not

Abnaxus · Dec 04, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Just my 2 cents about DoA, after having played 3-4 hours with my monk in PUGs and with my guildmates, and having read the experiences of other players in this forum.

1. I think this is the revenge of A.net against all who complained that GW PvE was dumb, easy, boring, not challenging and all this kind of stuff. Now they put in the game something so impossibly hard that no one can say that he can beat it while watching TV and drinking coffe.

2. That said, I'm worried about this sentence I found in this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I won't say it's easy.
I won't say it's not very, very, very challenging. (I added bold for emphasis, see that?

)
However, I will that that it is do-able.
It'll just take us some time and effort to figure out how!

I went there with a balance group of guildmates, we know each other, we have TS and decide the build before starting and so on.
And we got wiped at the very first mob of each area, except once when we killed the 1st mob (and I dropped a margonite gemstone

) but got wiped by the second.

I remember when ToPK was released, the very 1st day we went there with a balanced team, had some failures at 2nd or 3rd chamber, but eventually we managed to complete it. It took 3+ hours, but it was doable.
Then B/P teambuild was discovered, and this allowed to clear ToPK in less than half of the time and became the cookie cutter build for that place.

But in ToPK, the difference between B/P and balanced teams was essentially the reliability of the build and the speed. Nevertheless, ToPK was actually doable with a balanced team.

DoA doesn't seem to be doable with a balanced (although skilled) team.
So, at the moment I'm just worried that it will become the new cookie cutter fest.
So far no cookie cutter build has been discovered, but reading this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

It'll just take us some time and effort to figure out how!

the first think that comes to my mind is that this mission are not designed for a balanced team, but there is some "trick" to know, and once it's discovered only cookie cutter builds will be able to do them.

To sum up, I'm worried that this can happen:
ToPK: a walk in the park with cookie cutter build, but doable also with a balanced team.
DoA: doable ONLY with a cookie cutter build, UNDOABLE with anything else.

Maybe there will be a different cookie cutter build for each new area, but my worry remains: if you don't have the specific character that fits to the specific team build, you will never be able not only to find place in a PUG, but even to do it with your well known guildmates, unless they all know and use the cookie cutter build.

That's just my general thought, I do hope I'm wrong and the developers studied well the balancement of those missions.
In the meanwhile, I'm working to complete the game with other characters, to be prepared to every possible cookie cutter build!

FrogDevourer · Dec 04, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I'm still amused to see the same flame baits over and over again. I guess this post will be lost and ignored after 60 pages of people pretending not to hear.

DoA is for players with a brain, decent skills (reflexes, knowledge...) and way too much spare time for their own good. I trust there are many hardcore players out there who did (or will) breeze through the DoA, and I acknowledge their dedication and willpower.

Unfortunately for me, I'm a not-exactly-casual-but-not-hardcore-either player. I completed all NF quests and missions, effortlessly, and only with heroes (because steamrolling them with humans is even less fun). I was somewhat disappointed because even the 'so-called' difficult missions were too easy (way more than some prophecies missions in their original pre-nerf form), and because I can count the number of dangerous areas on one hand. Yet I cannot spare 3 to 5 hours to clear one area or to do a single quest. Unfortunately for me, I'm also not a dedicated farmer. Killing the same mobs over and over again for a couple of golds/greens, or a couple of gemstones is boring and a waste of my time. I understand some people like to chase the ever eluding carrot, but I'm not one of them.

In short, NF had a lot of great features (heroes, hench controls, scenery, storyline, clever level design and reuse of maps, original monsters or skills...) but it was too easy for me. DoA sounded like a great addition, but it is not for me either.

For what it's worth, I also find the game design very sloppy. Not only is it a stronger version of the same old monsters (seriously... margonites and titans again!?), but it basically relies one strategy: to prevent players from playing normally (huge edenial, no damage mitigation, no stance/enchant/shout, no movement/kiting...) while hitting them with a supernatural damage output. Don't take me wrong I don't mind a very high difficulty level, but this place strongly encourages gimmick groups (e.g: using a defensive 'tank') which are neither particularly fun nor hard to play once the first couple of tutorials have been released.

A large majority of players is bitching because this place is too hard, but personally I'm disappointed because it's only a show of brute monster force. No originality, no strategy needed, no ingame thinking needed. Heck, even most PvE challenge missions are more thrilling than this place. My strongest grudge against DoA is that players only have to find the right cookie-cutter build, and practice.

Granted during the first few days or weeks, masochist players will use their brain and experience to find the best cookie-cutter build after hours and hours of failure. But don't be fooled, the think-and-design period won't last long. The main design flaw with DoA is that with a minimum of trial and errors, such a simple show of brute monster force is easy to crack down, and once it's been cracked, defeating it is a just matter of spare time and build copy/pasting.

Lastly, it's good to see some PvE content injected for true hardcore players, but I'm slightly disappointed to see there is nothing left for the others: no difficulty curve with intermediate rewards, no way to explore the area (ex: the slave quest in SF), no original quest or level design, no reward incentive (who still cares about rare weapon skins ?)...